May 18th, 2024

Unvaxxed should refuse ICU beds if infected


By Lethbridge Herald on January 8, 2022.

Editor: 

I am one of the Canadians angered at unvaxxed people. It infuriates me to read that staff are burned out and ICU beds are full with COVID patients, 90 per cent of whom are not vaccinated.

I accept that most of you will not change your opposition so here’s my offer to you: Sign an agreement that if you get infected with the virus you will not accept an ICU bed. 

Do this and I will not bug you to get the shots.

Larry Mackillop

Nanton

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Southern Albertan

It does beg the question, doesn’t it. It really is a paradox that still, most of the patients being treated in ICUs are the ‘unvaccinated.’ But, even when some are told they are dying from COVID-19, they have told the doctor, to “#@^% off,” because there are still, in disbelief and denial on their deathbed. Now, what may the most disturbing characteristic of this Omicron variant, is the negative effect on children. Already, in the USA this is the age group most negatively affected by the hundreds if not, the thousands, and already, tragically, we have had 3 young children die from COVID in Canada, one in Alberta and 2 in Ontario…3 too many. This is why there are pleas for older age group folks to get vaccinated to protect the younger children who cannot be vaccinated. It seems that it’s all rosy, until, one, or a loved one, happen to suffer the possible negative effects of this virus. It should not be taken lightly.

phlushie

And what about my family. My wife and daughter got vaccinated. My wife almost died from blood clots in her lungs and legs and my daughter got blood clots in her uterus. The so called vaccine is not safe. In fact there were no variants until people were vaccinated.

Southern Albertan

Yes, there is a risk either way, i.e. take a chance on side effects, or, take a chance on a negative effect from COVID. Again, it is a choice, on what risk to assume. I took the vaccine, knowing this sort of blood clot risk. I’m sorry re: your family’s issues, which I hope are resolved. This is why, one has to be alert to their own bodies and not hesitate to seek medical advice and treatment, either way.

John P Nightingale

Sorry for the serious repercussions from the (presumably) Astra Zeneca vaccines in your family. That said, the risk from stroke, embolism and heart attack is profoundly greater in COVID patients than the potential for serious side effects experienced by your wife and daughter. I hope they have recovered!
But once again, I must point out the serious misinformation you have presented. That is , your assertion that vaccination caused the mutations (“variants”). Absolutely false. Viruses (and Corona is no different) , mutate hundreds of times usually leading nowhere but occasionally a seriously virulent strain occurs and these make headlines. No other micro organism has been investigated, screened and dissected as much as this virus. The only truth to your point is that as more people became vaccinated, those unvaccinated individuals provided safe havens for the virus to reside , multiply so increasing the chances of a seriously virulent mutant.

Last edited 2 years ago by John P Nightingale
budafuko

my uncle, Vincenzo Fuoco, died on august 26 of coronary trouble exactly 1 month after his second pfizer shot. i feel your pain. I am so glad your family survived the shots 🙁

budafuko

go look at the numbers yourself instead of letting a company who is sponsored by pfizer tell them to you. 80% of people in ICU are vaccinated which begs the question if the vaccination really works or not

old school

I question your”90%” claim.
There is no reliable statistic to support your claim.
Can I say that the vaxed SHOULD BE DENIED a bed in icu?
After all they are the ones responsible and considerate and took the safeguard, therefore they shouldn’t be needing it.

Southern Albertan

The last I heard on the news (media) was about 82% of those in ICU were unvaccinated, so the percentages may change even hourly. No one is being denied a bed in ICU, and the medical profession has taken the Hippocratic Oath to treat the ill to the best of one’s ability. Other medical issues, such as preventable heart disease, diabetes, etc. could be targeted but this pandemic has been, conversely, like a not gradual, runaway freight train. Also, it has never been claimed that COVID vaccines are 100% effective, so one may still, even if vaccinated get this virus, which is why many of us vaccinated folks stay at home as much as possible, do not gather, do distancing, wear good masks, do fastidious hand hygiene, don’t touch our faces, eyes, noses, ears, and other nether body parts, without doing hand hygiene……
But, where the tire hits the road, is because so many unvaccinated folks have become so ill, as to require maximum beds and expertise, means, that now, over 80,000 surgeries have been cancelled in Alberta alone, which has caused many folks pain and suffering. It is human nature, indeed, to resent this.

budafuko

the media lies. in ontario novascotia and quebec 80% of people in ICU are vaccinated 2 shots or more. there is a study from israel that shows the shot is not effective against omicron. it only stands to reason that if the shot prevent you from getting sick and 80% of the population are vaccinated that 80% in ICU would be Vaccinated so it really does check out by the metrics

budafuko

remember also that the data is months behind so we don’t get up to date reporting on those types of numbers
they are trying to scare people in to getting vaccinated so they are showing the numbers from when most of the population wasn’t vaccinated and as the numbers catch up with themselves the number of vaccinated ICU stays goes up as it inevitably will

Last edited 2 years ago by budafuko
grinandbearit

We should strongly reject the idea that Albertans should be deprived of essential health care, either through legislation or through moral suasion of the type in this letter. All Albertans should have access to available health resources if they are sick, regardless of how ill-informed their personal decisions have recently been. Rather than dealing harshly with those who reject vaccination purely through personal choice, we should actually understand that they have been misled by health commentators, social media, friends, politicians, or celebrities who do not provide science-based advice. We should feel sorry for them and identify ways that we can help them out of their dismal situation.

Southern Albertan

In rereading the comment, I don’t believe that the writer is suggesting that health care care would be deprived, except, by one’s own choosing. It would be the same with end-of-life care….some folks finally say, themselves, ok, that’s it, I’m not going to take any more treatment, I’m ready to go. The suggestion could be, that perhaps, by choice, if one does not wish to take the vaccine, then maybe one could choose to also not end up on a ventilator in ICU because of being unvaxxed. It makes we wonder, if anyone, who is unvaxxed, has actually made the choice to not seek high powered treatment if their condition deteriorated to that point. It would be, a choice.

grinandbearit

I was opposing mandatory deprivation of health care and also moral suasion of the type contained in the original letter.

biff

health care across canada has been in decline for decades already. covid has kicked open that door completely now, exposing how it has been stretched beyond its limits for too long. postponing surgeries and tending to people in need had already been habituated long before covid. i believe a couple of issues that need to be addressed include the price canada agrees to pay pharma for meds – there are ways canada can attain drugs at lower cost, but govt after govt continues to not address this issue, much to the joy of the benefactor pharms that grease each of the major parties with their dirty money. another issue is that our system buys into the latest technologies at premium prices. there is undoubtedly a lot of money to be saved by making do with what gadgets we have at our disposal already, even if it all is not cutting edge. sometimes one has to make it by with good enough.
that said, i suppose we could have yet another costly “commission” on health care, which will line some pockets, help postpone action, and then shelve the recommendations as per what is usual with “commissions” in canada.
as for denying access to health emergency for the unvaxed, perhaps we should have some debate around this principle. but, it must not stop at that. the discussion must include all manner of “choices” people make with regard to their “health.” indeed, let us establish rigid exercise measures that are tracked via an app; a rigid diet standard that is tracked via an app; a sleep standard that is tracked via an app; vitamin and mineral intakes tracked via an app; alcohol and drug intakes limited and tracked via an app; sugar intake limited and tracked via an app; what activities we engage in, tracked via an app, especially so that we can deny emergency health access to anyone doing any activity that is deemed “risky” by the powers to which we will handing over choice over oneself.
what continues to irk me through all of this is that so few people consider how pharm “medicines are derived. synthetic derivatives – rather than natural products, because they cannot patent the latter and make their billions; ongoing torture of all sorts of sentient creatures – that is to say, living organisms that very obviously feel pain. are we so low on the decency scale that we would encourage the suffering of other life forms for “medication?” yes, that is a rhetorical query, as the answer is so obvious.

TonyPargeter

Refusing a vaccine during a pandemic is not at all comparable to other self-imposed health risks you list though; none of those are wildly contagious for starters. Under the circumstances, your persistent defense of the unvaccinated only makes sense for those who have chosen to eschew the social contract we are all born into, which is what Mr. MacKillop is talking about. So unless you’re a confirmed recluse, you present a textbook case for “oppositional defiant disorder,” something that all serious libertarians are arguably afflicted with. But since the perception of fanaticism naturally follows, one has to grasp at more admirable causes such as animal rights activism. Since I keep reading about this in your posts I assume that you are at least a vegetarian then?

biff

what we are not in agreement about is that whatever “social contract” it is that we have, those that stand for choice around vaxes and all things relating to their body is not up for compromise. it has been said long before me, by presumably far more learned people than i, that the rights of one stop at the body of another.
as for the presumed pandemic and the ‘seriousness’ of coivd, which we also do nt agre upon – it has been serious for some, but for a small % – we have numbers: about 307 million cases, 5.5 mil deaths, 259 mil recovered. that is over a 2 year period. the worst of it has been for the elderly with comorbidity, but for most, hardly an issue. but, if one keeps buying into the death numbers that are being pounded into one incessantly, rather than the incredibly high rate of recovery, one will be made so afraid that the fear will compromise the reality.
however, even if coivd is a pandemic, it would still not confer mandating that a person give up their right to choose for their body. what you may feel is good for you is not always what is good for me. i have my right to not be as trusting in pharm as you. i have my right to not support animal torture for any reason; unfortunately, you at present have a right to support animal torture. but you may not have that right to force any of those “ideals” on me or others opposed.
moreover, there are vaxes available. you feel they work. therefore, you take them as often as you are told, and you are protected. that is how a vax that works, works. you take it and you are protected from the virus. you do not need another to also be vaxed. so, stay out of my body. no means no.
btw – why always with the labels? while i cannot speak for all that stand for the inalienable right of each to their body, i am quite far apart from libertarian tenets. perhaps one may wish instead to explore the reality that is the authoritarian personality, and perhaps, consider how far along that dark path one may be. authoritarian personality transcends “political” bent, such that people that identify as conservative or as liberal are each able to be authoritarian. this is a great read, a free pdf. search: the authoritarians pdf, bob altemeyer.

biff

as for your query about my eating habits, i have written numerous times that i accept that things die so that other things live. it is the nature of this beast. there is, however, a big difference between torturing something to death . for any reason, and a decent kill. i source the meat that i eat with an eye on decency and sustainability. that is my choice, and i would not accept being told that i must, for example, eat a ration of pork that would support cruel industrial pork practices in the name of, say, a govt mandated social contract, monitored via an app, no less (gotta support the pork industry and all, as govt has decided it is in the best interest of society that we eat a ration of pork each week). i will ask you, again, how do you the like reconcile animal torture for any reason, and a supposed empathy for animals?

TonyPargeter

Public health measures to address the pandemic have nothing to do wih any authoritarian impulse, and to imply that they do is simply paranoid, dubious characteristics of “big pharma” aside. In the real world, they are still the only ones capable of addressing something like this so quickly and at scale. But if you are starting from the position that it’s a “shamdemic” because people aren’t dropping in the streets, I don’t see how you dodge the fact that you are now firmly ensconced with thoroughly questionable company.
The measures are about protecting public health and the health care system that is apparently in a perfect storm at the moment where it is in danger of being overwhelmed for real this time due to sheer numbers. The health of this system speaks to the basic functionality of our society, and thousands of people have already had important procedures cancelled, not to mention the massive burnout of people that you and everyone else will expect to be there if YOU need them. Animal rights activism aside, we will never reach the stage where the lives of any other animals trump human lives.
If you don’t want to take advantage of the protective vaccines science has provided, that’s fine so long as you stay home. If you want to remain at high risk of contracting and then spreading an extremely contagious infection that is dangerous to a significant number of people, is very much shredding public peace of mind and will continue to spread and mutate until starved of victims, you should at least have the decency to stay home. Other autonomous bodies just like yours are what comprise the general public after all. Hence the proof of vaccination being required for many activities already, even here in freedumb-loving Alberta. And more curtailment is coming.

biff

i suggest that you and others give the book i referenced in reply to you a gander. it is written by an associate professor in the dept of psychology at the university of manitoba. it is not a quacker read. moreover, it is an education, an eye opener. i think we will each catch ourselves to some degree and can thus be more aware. by and large it would seem far more than not have authoritarian tendencies. tolerance is not nearly as evolved as it would better be and serve us, and controlling tendencies are pervasive.
as for your comment that we will never reach the stage where the lives of any other animals trump human lives…is that the basis for the so very many supporting animal torture? could you and others inflict the pain directly yourself in some hope of prolonging your life? or, is it just ok to have someone else do so by proxy? do we feel we get to shed responsibility so long as it is a third party doing the dirty work that one seeks to “benefit” from? the disconnect is as fascinating as it is riveting. it is exactly that disconnect that keeps the most of us buying into all sorts of practices that we know to be undermining the health of our planet. and yet, the most keep on doing all the wrong things we have been doing. and in the case of covid, one is supporting the torture even as the numbers proclaim the vast, vast majority recover from covid. 280-odd million cases, and a comparatively measly 5.5 million deaths, worldwide of a pop approaching 8 billion, over 2 years.
this is hardly about whether animals and humans are equal: it is about what type of entities we are when we inflict pain and misery on any sentient being for any reason. moreover, we are not talking about a few creatures – we are talking about untold, vast numbers, 24 hours 7 days a week in a very many sicko labs. does the white lab coat make it nice and ethical for us? i just do not get it. there are other ways that are decent. the only way we get there is to say no to what has been going on for far too long.
that said, you dismiss authoritarianism as “paranoid” and such, and yet you support laws and mandates forcing people into vax submission: even though they would be ethically opposed to pharma and these vaxes, and even though they believe they own their body. again, in addition to the issue of animal torture, we find ourselves at another impasse: who owns one’s body? there is no middle ground. either one entirely owns their body, or they do not. as soon as an exception is made, ownership is given over; or, more correctly, taken over. do you feel someone/thing else has the right to own your body?
if the vaxes work, then is it not the unvaxed passing covid to one another. are you not, as a vaxed, protected? perhaps you could explain how a vaxed, deluged with sundry working vaxes, gets made sick by an unvaxed, if the the vax works?
as for the so-called protection of health care, i have noted how there are many issues that strain and undermine health care: how we eat, exercise or not, “risky” activities such as sports, climbing, biking, drinking…will one come to support heavy handedness for all that, too? official govt mandated/legislated standards and expectations monitored by apps and cameras and tests and the like? that would “improve” our societal health, and it would make for a far less strained and less expensive health system. and of course, we must also not overlook the sundry toxins we absorb every day thanks to the likes of rogue mining and manufacturing practices, our consumerism and the toxins and waste that creates. all the cancers and heart disease and such burdens our health care.
i will support one’s freedom to choose over strained healthcare any day. however, i am opposed to what makes us sick that we have so little choice over to date: rogue mining and manufacturing, and an economic system that thrives on poverty and excess. but that is another battle. we can be wiser in terms of what we choose to buy, and buy into, and what we choose to not buy. just as we can undermine serial animal torture simply by not using products borne of animal torture. what we accept and support through what we use and buy perpetuates practices.
mind you, the latest info is strongly suggesting the vaxes are not so good with omicron. even the third dose, now the booster is not being hailed as much of anything; but, you know, take it anyway, like, because it can’t hurt and all. (recall, not so long ago, when the second dose was the “booster”?). 75% of hospital covids are now vaxed, which compares with about the 80% that are fully vaxed. not a whole bunch of difference between vaxed and unvaxed protection.
those that support forced vaxing or else mandates continue to overlook that the vast majority of people recover from covid. they also overlook that total deaths worldwide during the covid “pandemic” are roughly the same as precovid years. as well, they choose to not compare the death rates of places that stayed as open as the most open these past 2 years, ie. florida, with places that chose the heavy handed route, ie new york. little difference. i provided links that underscored the death rates from covid in regions and countries are random when compared to double vaxed rates. there is no correlation.
while i say covid is not a pandemic, i also say that even if it were, we each retain the unequivocal right to decide with regard to our body. however, let us say this is a pandemic. as such, should people be traveling internationally during a pandemic? are govts and corps so thick that int’l travel would be ok during an actual pandemic?
your last line is telling. how you and others support what amounts to rape by vax is unsettling. “no” means “no” somehow means nothing to the vax or else mob. you must take it, or else. and that mob supports all the “or else” measures that are meant to force one into submission. so fearful are ye; so scary ye make it.

Lethrez

FWIW: Everyone I know with COVID right now is tripled vaxxed. Have yet to know anyone unvaxxed who has gotten it.

Also the CDC released information yesterday that 75% of the people who have died of COVID had 4 or more comorbidities.

grinandbearit

That attribution to the CDC is inaccurate. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-deaths-4-comorbidities/
And if 90% was vaccinated then nearly all COVID cases would be vaccinated people. What is your point?